Received Received: from ATHENA-AS-WELL.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA25906; Sat, 22 Jan 94 10:13:17 EST Received: from CARBONARA.MIT.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA00938; Sat, 22 Jan 94 10:13:13 EST From: acarnie@MIT.EDU Received: by carbonara.MIT.EDU (5.57/4.7) id AA13984; Sat, 22 Jan 94 10:13:12 -0500 Message-Id: <9401221513.AA13984@carbonara.MIT.EDU> To: celtling@MIT.EDU Subject: WELCOME! Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 10:13:11 EST WELCOME TO CELTLING! This message confirms you have been added to the mailing list. You may now post and receive messages on this list. Attached is an information sheet on Celtling. Even if you have already seen this message, I ask that all subscribers carefully read the instructions for posting and the discussion of what are appropriate topics for Celtling. Please post! Yours Andrew ****************************************************************************** CELTLING The Electronic Email list for the theoretical linguistics of the Modern Celtic Languages ********************************************** Information Sheet WHAT IS CELTLING? Celtling is an unmoderated email list for the discussion of theoretical syntax, morphology, phonology, and phonetics of the Modern Celtic Languages (Irish, Scots Gaelic, Manx, Welsh Breton, and Cornish). WHO OWNS CELTLING? The list is a private email list owned by Andrew Carnie and operated through the listserver at Project Athena at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Owner's address: Andrew Carnie Department of Linguistics and Philosophy 20D-219, MIT 77 Massachusetts Ave Cambridge MA 02139 acarnie@mit.edu As a list operated through MIT, Subscribers to Celtling are subject to the rules of Conduct for Electronic Mail as set out by Project Athena and MIT. Violation of these rules will result in removal from the list. HOW DO I SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE? Send email to acarnie@mit.edu Requests for subscription will take 36 hours to process HOW DO I POST: Send mail to celtling@mit.edu WHAT ARE APPROPRIATE SUBJECTS OF DISCUSSION ON THIS LIST? Any aspect of the Syntax Semantics Phonology Morphology Phonology Phonetics of the Modern Celtic Languages. Book/paper/conference announcements. All frameworks of linguistics (Generative or Descriptive) are welcome. WHAT IS **INAPPROPRIATE**? This list is for the discussion of Theoretical Linguistics of the modern Celtic Languages. Thus, the following topics have been (quite arbitrarly) declared inappropriate for this list. orthography etymology The Pedagogy of the Celtic Languages Sociolinguistic concerns* Dialectology* computational concerns* Historical concerns* *unless directly relevant to the discussion of the syntax, phonology, morphology, or phonetics of the Modern Languages. Discussion of the above should be directed to Gaelic-L@irlearn.ucd.ie, Welsh-L@irlearn.ucd.ie, or Celtic-L@irlearn.ucd.ie. It should be noted that the owner feels that the above topics are valid topics for discussion and academic pursuit, but are not appropriate to a list on theoretical linguistics, when other lists exist for these purposes. WHAT LANGUAGES CAN I POST IN? English, Irish, Scots Gaelic, Manx, Breton, Welsh, Cornish. But please remember that not everyone on the list necessarily speaks YOUR celtic language. The owner suggests then that English be the Lingua Franca for the list. WHAT IS IN THE WORKS? By March 1, 1994, an FTP server should be available for the distribution of papers about Celtic Linguistics. Keeps your eyes open for the announcement! Further Questions? Please direct them to Andrew Carnie personally ------- Message 2 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA08002; Sun, 23 Jan 94 18:01:58 EST Received: from hub.ucsb.edu by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA16992; Sun, 23 Jan 94 18:01:48 EST Received: from ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu by hub.ucsb.edu; id AA15596 sendmail 4.1/UCSB-2.1-sun Sun, 23 Jan 94 15:01:45 PST for celtling@mit.edu Received: by ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (4.1/SMI-3.2) id AA13377; Sun, 23 Jan 94 15:01:33 PST From: 6500njk@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Nicholas Kibre) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 1994 14:48:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: To: celtling@MIT.EDU Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Does anyone know if Herbert Pilch is still active in Celtic Linguistics, and if so, where he can be reached? Also, can someone tell me the easiest way to subscribe to the Journal of Celtic Linguistics (is there some way I can pay in US $'s?) Pob Hwyl, Nick o - - - - - - - - o _ Nicholas Kibre --- 6500njk@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu _ Adran Ieithyddiaeth, Prifysgol Califfornia, Santa Barbara o - - - - - - - - o ------- Message 3 Received: from ATHENA-AS-WELL.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA09351; Tue, 25 Jan 94 11:45:38 EST Received: from AL-BURRO.MIT.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA04736; Tue, 25 Jan 94 11:45:17 EST From: acarnie@MIT.EDU Received: by al-burro.MIT.EDU (5.57/4.7) id AA20236; Tue, 25 Jan 94 11:45:14 -0500 Message-Id: <9401251645.AA20236@al-burro.MIT.EDU> To: celtling@MIT.EDU Subject: POST POST POST! Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 11:45:13 EST Hello all, Just a quick administrative update. The list now has exactly 70 members, including some ofthe most famous names in Celtic Linguistics. We have an incredible resource here. So please don't be shy, post some messages! Many people, when they wrote to subscribe, said "I'm working on XXX in Language YYYY", If you folks have queries for the list, please post it! I suggest that even if they don't have questions people start telling us about their research. The list could provide an excellent source for comments. If no one else does this I will soon, but I don't want the list to turn into "Carnie spouts about Irish syntax". So post! And you people with new books and conference announcements, post them too. Ok enough nagging, lets get talking. On a completely different note, I hope to have an FTP site set up through the university of Michigan archives soon (by the end of the week??) where people can leave drafts of the papers they are working on for discussion. More about this soon. Andrew ------- Message 4 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA15809; Tue, 25 Jan 94 12:55:05 EST Received: from sinet.slb.com by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA19252; Tue, 25 Jan 94 12:53:57 EST Received: from corte-madera.geoquest.slb.com (phoenix.corte-madera.geoquest.slb.com) by SINet.SLB.COM id AA12445; Tue, 25 Jan 94 17:58:11 GMT Received: from sleepy.geoquest.slb.com by corte-madera.geoquest.slb.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18701; Tue, 25 Jan 94 09:52:47 PST Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 09:52:47 PST From: jtm@corte-madera.geoquest.slb.com (John T. McCranie) Message-Id: <9401251752.AA18701@corte-madera.geoquest.slb.com> To: celtling@MIT.EDU Subject: CeltLing: Intro/Question OK, I'll jump in with both feet. No research, no publications. Currently a software engineer trying to get into graduate school. Interested in linguistics, computational linguistics, natural language processing, and the Gaelic languages. My big question is: ``What is available?'' Andrew, you mentioned having an ftp site for announcements of new papers, etc. I hope we can expand that list to include previously published books and papers on the various topics. I already have a few papers from Andrew and some of Jim McCloskey's work (including the omnipresent _Transformational Syntax_ book). What else is out there, and how can we get at it? - -jtm - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John T. McCranie jtm@corte-madera.geoquest.slb.com GeoQuest Data Managment Division (415) 927 - 6243 5725 Paradise Dr. Suite 100 (415) 927 - 2923 (fax) Corte Madera, CA 94925 Cloud & Mountain (Was Finder Graphics. "Only the names have been changed to protect....") ------- Message 5 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA19459; Tue, 25 Jan 94 13:30:31 EST Received: from leeman.york.ac.uk by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA22882; Tue, 25 Jan 94 13:28:06 EST Received: from tower.york.ac.uk by leeman.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <22966-0@leeman.york.ac.uk>; Tue, 25 Jan 1994 18:22:53 +0000 Received: by tower.york.ac.uk (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for @leeman.york.ac.uk:celtling@MIT.EDU id AA21992; Tue, 25 Jan 94 18:29:24 GMT Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 18:17:05 +0000 (GMT) From: D Adger Subject: Re: CeltLing: Intro/Question To: "John T. McCranie" Cc: celtling@MIT.EDU In-Reply-To: <9401251752.AA18701@corte-madera.geoquest.slb.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In response to what's available, let me throw in a few things that re around about Scottish Gaelic syntax and semantics (and there's not much). There's a Stanford thesis by Gillian Ramchand (last year); an oldish book draft by David Cram; an Edinburgh University thesis by me (new); and a few early nels articles. Gillian has a recent NELS article on aspect, and a SALT paper on verbal nouns. I have a CONSOLE paper on agreement, and another on tense and aspect in MITWPL 20. There's a CUP volume coming out (hopefully) called Celtic and Beyond edited by Bob Borseley and Ian Roberts that also has a paper on tense and aspect in SG by me. There's little else as far as I know, but if anyone knows of recent stuff (or even older things relevnt to current theoretical questions) on SG, I'd love to hear. David Adger ------- Message 6 Received: from ATHENA-AS-WELL.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA19511; Tue, 25 Jan 94 13:30:50 EST Received: from MARINARA.MIT.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA14551; Tue, 25 Jan 94 13:30:15 EST From: acarnie@MIT.EDU Received: by marinara.MIT.EDU (5.57/4.7) id AA20142; Tue, 25 Jan 94 13:30:14 -0500 Message-Id: <9401251830.AA20142@marinara.MIT.EDU> To: celtling@MIT.EDU Subject: Re Intro/Question Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 13:30:13 EST jtm@corte-madera.geoquest.slb.com (John T. McCranie) said: >My big question is: ``What is available?'' >Andrew, you mentioned having an ftp site for announcements of new >papers, etc. I hope we can expand that list to include previously >published books and papers on the various topics. I'm hoping the ftp site will not just be for announcements, but that people will put electronic copies of their papers there, opening them for discussion. A valuable project might the be compilation of an e-bibliography for Celtic ling? Any volunteers? I should mention that two books that are descriptive surveys of the Celtic languages have just come out in the past year or so. People may want to take a look at these. Ball,M. J. (1993) _The Celtic Languages_ Routledge London MacAulay, D. (1992) _The Celtic Languages_ Cambridge U. Press These books both contain short surveys by various authors on the Celtic languages. Neither is particularly technical, both being descriptive surveys. So far, I've found the Ball book more detailed and useful, but its also more expensive. AC ------- Message 7 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA23459; Tue, 25 Jan 94 14:08:11 EST Received: from ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA27109; Tue, 25 Jan 94 14:07:55 EST Message-Id: <9401251907.AA27109@MIT.EDU> Received: from IBM.RHRZ.Uni-Bonn.DE by IBM.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9690; Tue, 25 Jan 94 20:08:02 MEZ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 19:56:37 MEZ From: UZS07B@IBM.rhrz.uni-bonn.de Subject: book on comparative study of celtic languages To: Celtling Hi folks, the first posting asked for books and stuff on celtic linguistics. I'm an absolute beginner myself, but I came across an interesting book lately: David MacAulay, The Celtic Languages, Cambridge 1992. The book presents a concise overview of the phonology, morphology and syntax of Irish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic, Manx, Breton, Welsh and Cornish. One chapter is devoted to each language; the structure of the chapters facilitates compa- risions between languages. There is an extensive bibliography at the end of each chapter. I hope you can find this book in your local university library; I found it in the library of Bonn university (which, however, offers classes in celtology) Ciao, Maria ------- Message 8 Received: from ATHENA-AS-WELL.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA25395; Tue, 25 Jan 94 14:24:08 EST Received: from BOLOGNESE.MIT.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA19690; Tue, 25 Jan 94 14:23:45 EST From: acarnie@MIT.EDU Received: by bolognese.MIT.EDU (5.57/4.7) id AA19303; Tue, 25 Jan 94 14:23:43 -0500 Message-Id: <9401251923.AA19303@bolognese.MIT.EDU> To: celtling@MIT.EDU Subject: members list Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 14:23:42 EST From private email from a Celtling subscriber: > Who are these famous celtologists who have joined the list? >What kind of research are they doing? This information would be valuable to me >because I'm currently trying to become familiar with the main directions in >celtology. Would anyone object to me posting the list of subscribers? ac ------- Message 9 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA27464; Tue, 25 Jan 94 14:42:02 EST Received: from vax1.dcu.ie by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA00570; Tue, 25 Jan 94 14:39:33 EST Received: from vax1.dcu.ie by vax1.dcu.ie (PMDF V4.2-12 #4433) id <01H84061RZ8G8WY664@vax1.dcu.ie>; Tue, 25 Jan 1994 19:39:15 GMT Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 19:39:14 +0000 (GMT) From: "Donncha O Croinin, DCU" <75017083@vax1.dcu.ie> Subject: Work on Irish etc To: celtling@MIT.EDU Message-Id: <01H84061T1TE8WY664@vax1.dcu.ie> X-Envelope-To: celtling@mit.edu X-Vms-To: IN%"celtling@mit.edu" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I may be repeating info already available (as I don't have a list of subscribers or topics already covered - I'm a new user), but those who are interested in work on Irish could do worse than checking the directory of persond involved in Natural Language Processing in Ireland, compiled by University of Limerick (e-mail sutcliffer@ul.ie for more details). Some of the persons listed are working on Irish linguistics as well as, or as contributory features to, NLP work. Also at the risk of repeating info, there is a major conference organised by the University of Ulster at Jordanstown (UUJ), 22-24 June 1994 - "International Conference on the Languages of Ireland". Principal speakers include Jim McCloskey, John Harris and Ken Hale. Also, there is a fring session, 25 June, on Generative Linguistics of Irish. More details on the conference from e-mail febh23@ujvax.ulster.ac.uk or fehn23@ujvax.ulster.ac.uk. On the fringe session, e-mail chiosan@ollamh.ucd.ie Donncha O Croinin Fiontar Dublin City University ------- Message 10 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA28596; Tue, 25 Jan 94 14:52:29 EST Received: from vax1.dcu.ie by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA01753; Tue, 25 Jan 94 14:51:07 EST Received: from vax1.dcu.ie by vax1.dcu.ie (PMDF V4.2-12 #4433) id <01H840ORJYWG8WY664@vax1.dcu.ie>; Tue, 25 Jan 1994 19:50:21 GMT Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 19:50:21 +0000 (GMT) From: "Donncha O Croinin, DCU" <75017083@vax1.dcu.ie> Subject: Introduction To: celtling@MIT.EDU Message-Id: <01H840ORKI768WY664@vax1.dcu.ie> X-Envelope-To: celtling@mit.edu X-Vms-To: IN%"celtling@mit.edu" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello, dia dhaoibh etc! I am leading a terminology project to service a new all-Irish degree in Finance, Computing and Enterprise which will have its first student intake in October 1994. All subjects will be taught through Irish - so quite a lot of complex terminology to be extracted and created in Irish (we also have to source equivalents in French, Spanish and German, which will be offered on the programme) and entered on a termbank. We intend to make the data as machine-readable as possible, and of course to make it available to other interested parties. Project has just commenced - we will keep you posted as to progress! As well as morphology, terminology etc, other interests here at DCU include syntactic structure of Irish and its suitability for use in experimental machine translation systems such as Eurotra (if anybody is interested, I'm sure we could arrange to place papers when the FTP is set up). Also, computer aided language learning of Irish - any interest out there? Donncha O Croinin Dublin City University ------- Message 11 Received: from ATHENA-AS-WELL.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA06545; Tue, 25 Jan 94 16:12:46 EST Received: from AL-BURRO.MIT.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA00416; Tue, 25 Jan 94 16:11:44 EST From: acarnie@MIT.EDU Received: by al-burro.MIT.EDU (5.57/4.7) id AA01290; Tue, 25 Jan 94 16:11:40 -0500 Message-Id: <9401252111.AA01290@al-burro.MIT.EDU> To: celtling@MIT.EDU Subject: Re Members list Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 16:11:40 EST Hi Folks, response to the idea of distributing the list of subscribers is gneerally favorable. I'll send out a copy tomorrow morning. If anyone wants their name suppressed for this purpose only, please send me some mail before then. When the ftp site is up, I'll put the list there. AC ------- Message 12 Received: from ATHENA-AS-WELL.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA16888; Tue, 25 Jan 94 17:56:12 EST Received: from AL-BURRO.MIT.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA09909; Tue, 25 Jan 94 17:50:19 EST From: acarnie@MIT.EDU Received: by al-burro.MIT.EDU (5.57/4.7) id AA04414; Tue, 25 Jan 94 17:50:17 -0500 Message-Id: <9401252250.AA04414@al-burro.MIT.EDU> To: celtling@MIT.EDU Subject: papers Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 17:50:17 EST - ------- Forwarded Message from nschapan@sfu.ca There are quite a few things on Celtic Hendrick, Randall 1988. Anaphora in Celtic and Universal Grammar Natural Language and Linguistic Theory, Kluwer Dordrecht Welsh and Breton) Hendrick, Randall(ed.) 1990. Syntax and Semantics, Syntax of the Celtic Languages. Academic Press, San Diego There is also a whole issue of the journal Natural Language and Linguistic Theory dedicated to the Celtic languages. I think it is the summer 1989. I'll come with some more later. Nathalie - ------- End of Forwarded Message ------- Message 13 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA17171; Tue, 25 Jan 94 17:59:22 EST Received: from sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA19630; Tue, 25 Jan 94 17:58:10 EST Message-Id: <9401252258.AA19630@MIT.EDU> Via: uk.ac.queens-belfast.vax2; Tue, 25 Jan 1994 21:05:39 +0000 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 21:07 GMT From: CSG0070@v2.qub.ac.uk To: CELTLING Subject: Books I seem to remember (quite a long time ago!) a book on the transformational grammar of Welsh by Awberry (or something close to it). Ciara/n O/ Duibhi/n. ------- Message 14 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA17274; Tue, 25 Jan 94 18:00:39 EST Received: from hub.ucsb.edu by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA19849; Tue, 25 Jan 94 18:00:23 EST Received: from ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu by hub.ucsb.edu; id AA15028 sendmail 4.1/UCSB-2.1-sun Tue, 25 Jan 94 15:00:09 PST for celtling@mit.edu Received: by ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (4.1/SMI-3.2) id AA04231; Tue, 25 Jan 94 14:59:53 PST From: 6500njk@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Nicholas Kibre) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 14:52:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Posting To: celtling@MIT.EDU Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am currently working on the phonology of Welsh mutation, but my interests really include all aspects of Welsh and Breton (In fact, I got started on Celtic langs with a paper on Breton agreement). I've also dabbled a bit in Welsh intonation. I've been at this for about two years, & have a fairly good bibliography on Welsh phonology which I would be happy to share (as well as numerous opinions! :) I am, as far as I know, the only linguist working on a Celtic language from a functionalist perspective (whatever that means). o - - - - - - - - o _ Nicholas Kibre --- 6500njk@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu _ Adran Ieithyddiaeth, Prifysgol Califfornia, Santa Barbara o - - - - - - - - o (Linguistics Dept., U.C. Santa Barbara) ------- Message 15 Received: from ATHENA-AS-WELL.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA22093; Wed, 26 Jan 94 10:05:16 EST Received: from CARBONARA.MIT.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA13755; Wed, 26 Jan 94 10:03:50 EST From: acarnie@MIT.EDU Received: by carbonara.MIT.EDU (5.57/4.7) id AA13178; Wed, 26 Jan 94 10:03:49 -0500 Message-Id: <9401261503.AA13178@carbonara.MIT.EDU> To: celtling@MIT.EDU Subject: Membership list Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 10:03:48 EST Hi All, Here is a list of members as of 10:26 EST, January 26,1994. I'll put a copy of the list in the ftp archives soon. Andrew _______________________ Paolo Acquaviva David Adger Shisha-Halevy Ariel Jean-Pierre Angoujard Martin J. Ball Eoin C. Bairead" Philip Branigan Brian Burtt Andrew Carnie David Cram Daniel J. Curtin Brenda/n Dalton Scott Delancy Claude Detienne Cathal Doherty Judy Dick Nigel Duffield Inge Genee Antony Green Sheri E. Gress <94sgress@ultrix.uor.edu> Dineen Grow S J Hannahs Kevin Hind Thomas Ihde Janne Bondi Johannessen jmj@uclink.berkeley.edu (Janice M Johnson) Heather Rose Jones R. Mark Jones Dianne Jonas Lars Kabel Brett Kessler Nicholas Kibre <6500njk@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu> Tony Killeen John Koch ledu@cassis-gw.univ-brest.fr (Jean LEDU) Peg Lewis Fernando da Assuncao Martins Tom McClive III John T. McCranie Mike McIlrath John Mills Siusa\idt Miller Dorothy Milne Christopher Nichol Ken Nilsen Michael Pearson MARC PICARD Donncha O Croinin Caoimhin P. ODonnaile Ciara/n O/ Duibhi/n Willie O'Farrell Mi/chea/l O/ Foghlu/ John O'Neil Gerry oneill Kevin Osullivan David A. Quick Gillian C Ramchand E. Wyn Roberts James M. Roberts Henry Rogers Robin Schafer Nathalie Shapansky Peter Sells Peter Slomanson Wendy Slaymaker Tom Sjoblom Richard Sproat Robert Thiel Janne Lynne Underriner Amy Varin Wayne Harbert robert westmoreland Briony Williams David Willis Konstantin. Woebking Karen Wood Maria Wolters ------- Message 16 Received: from ATHENA-AS-WELL.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA25100; Wed, 26 Jan 94 10:41:21 EST Received: from CARBONARA.MIT.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA16358; Wed, 26 Jan 94 10:40:07 EST From: acarnie@MIT.EDU Received: by carbonara.MIT.EDU (5.57/4.7) id AA14083; Wed, 26 Jan 94 10:40:05 -0500 Message-Id: <9401261540.AA14083@carbonara.MIT.EDU> To: celtling@MIT.EDU Subject: ftp server Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 10:40:04 EST CELTLING now has an anonymous ftp server run through the LINGUIST archives at the University of Michigan. What is this server for: 1) a Monthly (apprx) archive of CELTLING transactions 2) Information sheets 3) Freeware/shareware of use to Linguists working on the Celtic languages 4) Papers for discussion and comments. HOW TO GET INTO THE SERVER: ** From FTP: The command is: ftp archive.umich.edu the directory is: /linguistics/celtling Use the "get" command to copy a file to your own account. If you are uploading a program or a formatted paper, be sure to type "bin" before using the "get" command. ** From AFS If you are on an AFS cell you may "link" or attach the umich archives to your own directory. The directory is: /afs/umich.edu/group/itd/archive/linguistics/celtling Once you "cd" to this directory, you can use the files there-in as if they were in your home directory. ** From Email Sorry there is no email access available at this time. WHAT IS IN THERE RIGHT NOW: CELTLING.information (welcome message) HOW TO PUT SOMETHING ON THE LIST: The Celtling directory is write protected. Only the administrator of the archives can put things in it (even I can't touch it). S Method #1) Use the "put" command (in AFS this is "cp") to put a file in the /linguistics/uploads directory Method #2) Send it to acarnie@mit.edu and I'll put it in the uploads directory. FORMATS: Papers and software should be properly encoded and compacted. Mac Papers should be encoded with Binhex4.0e the extension .hqx IBM Papers should be in a binary format, preferably WP5.1 binary. If possible they should be Zipped: .zip Other formats could encluded encapuslated postscript files (.ps ?) There are help documents in the /linguistics directory. ------- Message 17 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA08977; Wed, 26 Jan 94 13:16:55 EST Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA12569; Wed, 26 Jan 94 13:15:45 EST Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9071; Wed, 26 Jan 94 13:15:48 EST Received: from mailgate.ucd.ie (NJE origin MAILGATE@IEGBOX) by MITVMA.MIT.EDU (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 5631; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 13:15:47 -0500 Received: from ollamh.ucd.ie by mailgate.ucd.ie (PMDF V4.2-12 #4790) id <01H85BM3TW5C008JYX@mailgate.ucd.ie>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 18:06:50 GMT Received: from OLLAMH/MAILQUEUE by ollamh.ucd.ie (Mercury 1.1); Wed, 26 Jan 94 18:13:45 GMT Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 18:10:55 +0000 (GMT) From: CHIOSAIN@ollamh.ucd.ie Subject: parasession posting To: celtling@MIT.EDU Message-Id: Organization: University College Dublin X-Envelope-To: celtling@mit.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R3). Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT PARASESSION ON THE GENERATIVE LINGUISTICS OF IRISH 25 June 1994, University of Ulster, Jordanstown [Following the International Conference on Language in Ireland June 22-24 1994, University of Ulster at Jordanstown] Second call for abstracts of 30-minute papers on all aspects of the generative grammar of Irish. Please send five copies of a one-page abstract, along with name, address and e-mail address where possible, to: Parasession on the Generative Linguistics of Irish, Department of Linguistics, University College Dublin, Belfield, Dublin 4, Ireland. Abstract deadline: 15 February 1994 [** Please note extension of deadline] Further enquiries should be addressed to acquaviv@ccvax.ucd.ie OR chiosain@ollamh.ucd.ie ------- Message 18 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA12115; Wed, 26 Jan 94 13:49:10 EST Received: from sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA15709; Wed, 26 Jan 94 13:48:43 EST Message-Id: <9401261848.AA15709@MIT.EDU> Via: uk.ac.ulster.ujvax; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 18:04:21 +0000 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 18:06 BST From: FEBH23@UJVAX.ULSTER.AC.UK To: CELTLING Subject: Posting re Nicholas Kibre's posting In response to Nicholas Kibre's points. 1) A recent account of Welsh mutation from numerous linguistic viewpoints (including phonology) is Ball, M and Mu"ller, N (1993) 'Mutation in Welsh', London: Routledge. Expensive, but worth it! As full as set of references on mutation as we could get as well as interesting explorations of the many facets of this feature. 2) Functional/Cognitive linguists working on Celtic. Those interested in a non-generative approach to celtic linguistics might wish to contact people such as James Fife, (jfife@sdcc3.ucsd.edu) or Erich Poppe (ep10000@hermes.cam.ac.uk) or Nicole Mu"ller (isg0006@v2.qub.ac.uk). Martin J Ball ------- Message 19 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA12972; Wed, 26 Jan 94 13:57:10 EST Received: from hub.ucsb.edu by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA16575; Wed, 26 Jan 94 13:56:46 EST Received: from ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu by hub.ucsb.edu; id AA04823 sendmail 4.1/UCSB-2.1-sun Wed, 26 Jan 94 10:56:13 PST for CELTLING@mit.edu Received: by ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (4.1/SMI-3.2) id AA08506; Wed, 26 Jan 94 10:54:40 PST From: 6500njk@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Nicholas Kibre) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 10:50:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Books To: CSG0070@v2.qub.ac.uk Cc: CELTLING In-Reply-To: <9401252258.AA19630@MIT.EDU> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 25 Jan 1994 CSG0070@v2.qub.ac.uk wrote: > I seem to remember (quite a long time ago!) a book on the transformational > grammar of Welsh by Awberry (or something close to it). That would be Awbery, G.M. (1976) The Syntax of Welsh: a Transformational Analysis of the Passive. Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press. Needless to say, generative grammar has changed a lot since 1976, but if you're working on the Welsh "cael"+Berfenw passive, this might still be a got place to start. o - - - - - - - - o _ Nicholas Kibre --- 6500njk@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu _ Adran Ieithyddiaeth, Prifysgol Califfornia, Santa Barbara o - - - - - - - - o ------- Message 20 Received: from ATHENA-AS-WELL.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA29897; Wed, 26 Jan 94 16:46:02 EST Received: from BOLOGNESE.MIT.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA19918; Wed, 26 Jan 94 16:44:50 EST From: acarnie@MIT.EDU Received: by bolognese.MIT.EDU (5.57/4.7) id AA13768; Wed, 26 Jan 94 16:44:49 -0500 Message-Id: <9401262144.AA13768@bolognese.MIT.EDU> To: celtling@MIT.EDU Subject: more on ftp Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 16:44:48 EST As an addendum to my last message, if you put something in the uploads file of teh CELTLING ftp site, please be sure to tell me so I can inform the site administrator. Thanks AC ------- Message 21 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA05454; Wed, 26 Jan 94 17:48:33 EST Received: from hub.ucsb.edu by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA09754; Wed, 26 Jan 94 17:46:46 EST Received: from ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu by hub.ucsb.edu; id AA16277 sendmail 4.1/UCSB-2.1-sun Wed, 26 Jan 94 14:46:41 PST for celtling@mit.edu Received: by ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (4.1/SMI-3.2) id AA20167; Wed, 26 Jan 94 14:46:14 PST Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 14:46:14 PST From: 6500njk@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Nicholas Kibre) Message-Id: <9401262246.AA20167@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu> To: celtling@MIT.EDU Here's another book people might be interested in. The Syntax of the modern Celtic languages / edited by Randall Hendrick. San Diego : Academic Press, c1990. Series title: Syntax and semantics ; v. 23. Pob Hwyl, Nick Kibre ------- Message 22 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA16151; Thu, 27 Jan 94 15:54:37 EST Received: from MTL.MIT.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA22056; Thu, 27 Jan 94 15:53:17 EST Received: by mtl.mit.edu (5.57/Ultrix4.1-C) id AA01277; Thu, 27 Jan 94 15:50:34 -0500 Organization: MIT Microsystems Technology Laboratories Reply-To: mbm@mtl.mit.edu Received: by garcon.mit.edu (4.1/mtl-1.1) id AA18957; Thu, 27 Jan 94 15:50:33 EST Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 15:50:33 EST From: mbm@mtl.mit.edu Message-Id: <9401272050.AA18957@garcon.mit.edu> To: 6500njk@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu Cc: CSG0070@v2.qub.ac.uk, CELTLING@MIT.EDU In-Reply-To: Nicholas Kibre's message of Wed, 26 Jan 1994 10:50:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: welsh More recent is Sadler, L. Welsh Syntax, A Government-Binding Approach. Croom-Helm, 1988. mike ------- Message 23 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA26377; Fri, 28 Jan 94 05:42:02 EST Received: from iraun1.ira.uka.de by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA01971; Fri, 28 Jan 94 05:40:35 EST Received: from xlink1.xlink.net by iraun1.ira.uka.de id <06099-0@iraun1.ira.uka.de>; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 11:39:42 +0100 Received: from computec by xlink1.xlink.net id aa04099; 28 Jan 94 11:38 MET Received: by computec.de (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11437; Fri, 28 Jan 94 11:30:20 +0100 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 11:30:20 +0100 From: "Brendan Dalton RiomhTec Teo." Message-Id: <9401281030.AA11437@computec.de> To: MIT.EDU!CELTLING@computec.de An bhfuil aithne ag duine ar bith ar teideal an ailt le Morris Swadesh sa leabhar: The Origin and Diversification of Language J. Sherzer, eag., Chicago 1971 < Title of Swadesh's article? > Go raibh maith agaibh. Breanda/n Dalton brendan@computec.de ------- Message 24 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA29224; Fri, 28 Jan 94 08:29:35 EST Received: from sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA05039; Fri, 28 Jan 94 08:26:00 EST Via: uk.ac.edinburgh.castle; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 13:13:39 +0000 Received: from ml0.ucs.ed.ac.uk by castle.ed.ac.uk id aa09072; 28 Jan 94 13:13 GMT Received: From UCS-ML0/WORKQUEUE by gold.ucs.ed.ac.uk via Charon-4.0-VROOM with IPX id 100.940128131445.384; 28 Jan 94 13:14:57 +500 Message-Id: From: CELKHP@srv0.arts.edinburgh.ac.uk Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at uk.ac.ed.castle To: celtling@MIT.EDU Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 13:10:54 GMT Subject: Glottal action in Welsh Priority: normal X-Mailer: PMail v3.0 (R1a) Here's a little query that's been bugging me for a while. The stop series in Welsh tend to contrast for aspiration rather than voicing, giving voiceless aspirated and voiceless non-aspirated. Some dialects have no /h/ in their inventory, e.g. Glamorgan. In these same dialects, the reflexes of the Nasal Mutation are not the voiceless/aspirated nasals found elsewhere, just plain voiced. In addition, voiceless /r/ is also absent. What I want to know is the nature of the contrast in the stop series in these dialects. Does it revolve more round voicing than VOT ? Kev Hind ------- Message 25 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA02355; Fri, 28 Jan 94 09:29:10 EST Received: from bosoleil.ci.umoncton.ca by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA08310; Fri, 28 Jan 94 09:26:57 EST Received: by bosoleil.ci.umoncton.ca (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA15182; Fri, 28 Jan 94 10:27:39 -0400 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 10:27:00 -0300 (ADT) From: robert thiel Subject: Re: Glottal action in Welsh (fwd) To: celtling@MIT.EDU Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kev, What do you mean by the 'voiceless, non-aspirated' stops in Welsh? Are you saying that 'b, d and g' are voiceless? Curiously, - -Bob Robert Thiel Internet: thielr@umoncton.ca Universite de Moncton Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada ------- Message 26 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA13011; Sat, 29 Jan 94 09:08:38 EST Received: from husc8.harvard.edu by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA17346; Sat, 29 Jan 94 09:08:04 EST Date: Sat, 29 Jan 1994 08:57:36 -0500 (EST) From: John Koch Subject: Re: Glottal action in Welsh To: CELKHP@srv0.arts.edinburgh.ac.uk Cc: celtling@MIT.EDU In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It is my impression, and purely that, just from listening to tapes and speakers from East Glam. and (extreme NW) Gwent, that the initial stop in a word like tad would be strongly aspirated as in the other dialects (or for that matter as in English, German, Gaelic, and Breton). On the other hand, with the calediad phenom. in the same area, e.g. credu [khretti], dywedodd [gwettus], digon [di(:)k(:)on], eglwys [ekklus], I don't hear a lot of aspiration in the medial "hardened" or ?geminated stop. The dialect descriptions can be maddeningly ambiguous in this regard. I'm eager to learn a well-supported answer. John Koch Harvard ------- Message 27 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA14678; Sun, 30 Jan 94 04:37:23 EST Received: from vms.huji.ac.il by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA16695; Sun, 30 Jan 94 04:36:08 EST Received: by HUJIVMS (HUyMail-V6l); Sun, 30 Jan 94 11:37:14 +0200 Received: by HUJIVMS via SMTP(132.64.177.200) (HUyMail-V6l); Sun, 30 Jan 94 10:04:23 +0200 Received: by mailhum.huji.ac.il with Microsoft Mail id <2D4BF61D@mailhum.huji.ac.il>; Sun, 30 Jan 94 10:02:05 PST From: Shisha-Halevy Ariel To: celtling Subject: introducing myself Date: Sun, 30 Jan 94 09:51:00 PST Message-Id: <2D4BF61D@mailhum.huji.ac.il> Encoding: 12 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Hello, colleagues: May I introduce myself? My name is Ariel Shisha-Halevy, of the Dept. of Linguistics, Hebrew University of Jerusalem. I am a descriptive structuralist - - non-generative, non-government-and-binding/theoretical ling./universalist, just old European structuralism (Saussure-Hjelmslev-Prague School) - working on Mabinogi syntax: Sentence Conversion (out later this year), nominal predicates, mise-en- relief, narrative tenses. My research and publications so far since 1972 have been on Egyptian-Coptic and general linguistics. I yearn for kindred souls - these getting rarer and rarer. Ariel ------- Message 28 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA21904; Mon, 31 Jan 94 05:59:58 EST Received: from sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA21438; Mon, 31 Jan 94 05:58:37 EST Message-Id: <9401311058.AA21438@MIT.EDU> Via: uk.ac.ulster.ujvax; Mon, 31 Jan 1994 10:54:32 +0000 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 10:52 BST From: FEBH23@UJVAX.ULSTER.AC.UK To: CELTLING Subject: aspiration and /h/ Concerning the query on aspiration and /h/ in S. Welsh accents. As noted, many S. Welsh accents lack /h/. They also lack the "so-called" voiceless nasals, which are (for most speakers at any rate) in reality /mh/ /nh/ /Nh/, i.e. the nasal followed by /h/. These accents also lack the voiceless trill. This is slightly more complex, as in northern accents this tends to be a voiceless trill followed by /h/. It would appear that the loss of /h/ precipitates a complete merger with the voiced trill, presumably because botht he voicelessness and the /h/ are required to distinguish the two sounds sufficiently. Now, the question arises, do fortis plosives lose their aspiration, and if not why not. The answer (see data in Ball & Jones 84 "Welsh Phonology") is that they do not: southern accents and northern accents use aspiration in initial position (at least) as the main cue to distinguish fortis and lenis. As the 1984 chapter showed, lenis stops (and fricatives) are largely voiceless - for some speakers this is even true in intervocalic position. (This answers the other query on the list concerning the 'voiced' stops!) But of course, aspiration with stops is not the same as the use of /h/. Aspiration is a by-product of a timing relationship between the release stage of a stop consonant and the commencement of vocal fold vibration. In all Welsh accents - in stressed initial position at least - the 'voice onset time is large enough for us to perceive voiceless breath (i.e. aspiration). Sounds like nasals and trills do not have release points in the same way as stops do: therefore we must assume that the inclusion or otherwise of a period of breathy friction (i.e. /h/) after these sounds is planned. In other words: presence or absence of /h/ with the nasals and trills is a high-level phonological decision. The presence of aspiration after stops is a low-level phonetic consequence of how the phonological contrast of fortis-lenis is executed. It is not surprising, therefore, that the two features are not linked in terms of dialect/accent differences. I hope more details of experimental phonetics of Welsh will be available if we ever finish (and publish!) "Welsh Phonetics" M. Ball & B. Williams. Anyone interested in the area is welcome to send me queries via Celtling or directly. I can't guarantee to answer them all (or any of them!!) Martin J Ball ------- Message 29 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA24118; Mon, 31 Jan 94 08:19:09 EST Received: from hub.ucsb.edu by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA23867; Mon, 31 Jan 94 08:16:05 EST Received: from ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu by hub.ucsb.edu; id AA24117 sendmail 4.1/UCSB-2.1-sun Mon, 31 Jan 94 05:15:56 PST for CELTLING@mit.edu Received: by ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (4.1/SMI-3.2) id AA00715; Mon, 31 Jan 94 05:15:20 PST From: 6500njk@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Nicholas Kibre) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 05:05:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Welsh Aspiration: Another Can of Worms: To: FEBH23@ujvax.ulster.ac.uk Cc: CELTLING In-Reply-To: <9401311058.AA21438@MIT.EDU> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've heard that in some N. Welsh dialects, Prevocalic Aspiration (the h- in "eu hiechyd", "ein hatgoffa") can apply to words beginnig with sonorants (other than a palatal glide). I don't have any data, but I as understand it one can hear something like "eu nhant" (their brook). This brings up several questions: (1) First of all, do I have my facts right? :) (2) Exactly which consonants can P.V.A. apply to? (3) Is the sound produced by applying PVA to a sonorant the same as a regular voiceless sonorant? (This could give us insight into whether mh, nh, ngh, & rh consist of one or two phonemes each...) (4) Where exactly in Wales does this occur? o - - - - - - - - o _ Nicholas Kibre --- 6500njk@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu _ Adran Ieithyddiaeth, Prifysgol Califfornia, Santa Barbara o - - - - - - - - o ------- Message 30 Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by po7.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA09366; Mon, 31 Jan 94 11:27:15 EST Received: from POSTOFFICE.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA10074; Mon, 31 Jan 94 11:27:03 EST Received: from [132.236.21.26] by postoffice.mail.cornell.edu with SMTP id AA20240 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 31 Jan 1994 11:26:59 -0500 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 11:26:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199401311626.AA20240@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> To: celtling@MIT.EDU From: adg1@cornell.edu (Antony Green) Subject: Re: aspiration and /h/ >Aspiration is a by-product of a timing relationship between the release >stage of a stop consonant and the commencement of vocal fold vibration. >In all Welsh accents - in stressed initial position at least - the 'voice >onset time is large enough for us to perceive voiceless breath (i.e. >aspiration). Sounds like nasals and trills do not have release points >in the same way as stops do: therefore we must assume that the inclusion or >otherwise of a period of breathy friction (i.e. /h/) after these sounds >is planned. > Well, trills don't have the same kind of release as stops, but nasals certainly do, as [m] [n] [N] are articulatorily [b] [d] [g] with the velum lowered. And theoretically at least it should therefore be as easy to aspirate nasals as stops. But of course aspirated (= voiceless) nasals are very highly marked in the world's languages, and aspirated stops considerably less so. The only languages I know of with aspirated nasals are Burmese and Welsh; and Burmese certainly and Welsh arguably contrasts aspirated with nonaspirated voiceless oral stops. Antony Green Cornell University ADG1@CORNELL.EDU ------- End of Forwarded Messages